fusionatl

Hey Y'all..


There are some who have the belief that God predestined those who will be saved and those who should perish. No matter what a person does to gain salvation through Christ, it is claimed that God has already predestined where they shall spend eternity.

Also I've heard claims that Pagans will not truly believe in God and that they are therefore destined for Hell, even though they may become Christians and thought to be Saved. There is a particular source that this is was said to come from. That source being John Calvin...

I have not researched this myself but recently got into a conversation with someone who presented these views. What do you all have to pitch in to shed some light on this sort of belief system which usually is accompanied by the scriptures below to back up such claims.



Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Romans 8:30
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5
he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,


Have a nice day and be blessed,
Chad

Okay, this question was bound to come up at some point...
First off, theologians have been arguing about this for CENTURIES, so we aren't going to settle the argument in thread online. Most arguments come down to Calvinism and Arminianism.
I'm not a deep theologian so you might want to look those two terms up in Wikipedia or at Got Questions here http://www.gotquestions.org/predestination.html But that might just confuse you even more!

What we do know is this...
2 Peter 3:9
He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
God does not want any human to go to hell...I think it's foolish to say that He does. For me, 2 Peter 3:9 seals the deal. It says it right there...God doesn't want anyone to go to hell. So obviously if God does not want anyone to go to hell, He is not going to (before they are even born) decide that He is sending them to hell.
The Bible is clear in numerous points that people choose to go to Hell (God sets life & death before us...and tells us to choose life). God does not send people to hell...people's lack of belief in the forgiveness found in Jesus Christ is what sends them to hell.

I was pretty confused about this topic too until lately. I read something that really made it make A LOT of sense...not saying this is "Thus saith the Lord" or anything, but for me this really helped to de-mystify this.
I was reading the book, "The Triumph" by Gene Edwards. First off, this book is incredible & I recommend it for anyone. Secondly, I am going to use this in a message at some point so I don't want to spoil it all. BUT...
What he talked about is this...
God is the Alpha & the Omega. Think about that for a second. God IS the Alpha & God IS the Omega. God IS the beginning & God IS the end. God stands outside of time. So think about this...God, right now, is at the beginning...and God, right now, is at the end.
Right now, God is at the creation of the world. And right now, God is at the end of earth-time when the book of life is being opened up.
At the end, right now, God is filling out the book of life with the names of all who will receive Jesus in this life. Millions of people probably. Where God stands, He is at the end! People are filing into Heaven (or however it looks) and their names are being written down. The book of Life, right now, is being filled out...because God is at the end (which hasn't taken place yet, but God is there...confused yet?!?!).
So the last person enters heaven...the book of Life is complete. No more names to be entered. The final judement has occurred. So God now has a record of EVERY person who will receive Jesus in this life.
GET THIS...
Then God takes the book of Life & He throws it back through time & catches it at the foundation of the world, at the very beginning. God now, before He creates anyone, knows who will accept Him & who will follow Him. Because He is at the beginning & He is at the end & He is right now as we speak. That is predestination...God knows beforehand who will accept Him.
Because God's time does not work like our time...God is at the beginning & God is at the end.

PUT THAT IN YOUR PIPE & SMOKE IT!!!!

That blew me away!

This is really clear and precisely what I was looking for. I totally agree with God knowing who will accept him, not that he will make a choice in who will or who won't or choose who will be saved or not.

Thanks so much,
Chad

You know, this was brought up @ the Forum over @ T's house a couple weeks ago.

Well, not to throw a wrench in here or anything, but isn't that the same as saying someone is destined for Heaven/Hell. Since God already knows who will accept/deny him and his truth and we have no idea what will happen to us we are just living life, (and since the end has already been written) wouldn't it be fair(humanly logical) to say that we are following a destiny.

Kind of Like Jesus' Destiny was to come to the earth and be our Holy and Acceptable Sacrifice.

Or Mary being the Mother of Jesus
Or Judas' betrayal of Jesus
Or Jesus' Resurrection
Or Final Victory(Armagadeon)

Even Old Testament: God Told Abraham about the Slavery of Israel for 400 years.

And Moses that the people would stray away from God.

What I think is most important to realize is that due to the fact that we don't know how eternity will end for us alone, that you should Accept Jesus as your Savior & Lord, strive to do the will of God, and Live a life that reflects Christ in you.

I totally believe the choice is still ours to make, even though only God knows the outcome.

Absolutely Eddie. That's what I was hoping to get across. The choice is ours to make...that's why people actually, regrettably, do end up in hell. Or else if we were all robots, preprogrammed then God would just send us to heaven.

The fact that God knows what we will choose is not saying that some people are destined for heaven or destined for hell...in the way that we think about it. We think, God creates some people to send to heaven, some people to send to hell. It doesn't work like that.

God creates people b/c He loves people & wants relationship. That's it.
He does know, before He creates us what we will choose though. If not, then He's not God. God knows all things...that's kind of in His job description.


It's probably waaaaay too far above our heads to really figure this thing out...but we say we are "following a destiny" & think that we have pre-programmed route to follow. But that's not it. Just because God knows what will happen doesn't mean that He makes it happen. That would take free will out of the equation.

What I was trying to say about the Alpha & the Omega idea is that God IS the alpha & God IS the omega. This is the thing we can't understand. God is the beginning & God is the end. He is there right now.
He is at the beginning...that doesn't mean what we are living right now isn't real...it is...it's not the beginning anymore. But God is there.
And He is at the end...that doesn't mean what we are living right now has already been pre-programmed for us...we are living right now.

But God doesn't just live right now...He IS time...in Him we live & move & have our being...He IS the glue that holds everything together...He IS the beginning & He IS the end...He's there right now & here...and knows it all.

That's what makes this whole thing make sense...that at the beginning God knew the end...because He's in both places at the same time.

I know...way over our heads...I don't really understand it. I understand the concept, but the idea is WHOOSH, right over my head.

You said, "I totally believe the choice is still ours to make, even though only God knows the outcome." That sounds right to me. God does know the outcome...but that doesn't mean that He makes the decision for us.

the knowledge of the holy by a. w. tozer. it goes into this kind of stuff.

but be forewarned: it is a weighty kind of book! the chapters are small, but very deep. definitely not a book you can speed read through.

I feel that's where the whole faith thing comes in. There is no way we can sit here and try to figure everything out (believe me I have tried) because if we could we would be on the same level as God. I think that's why some people doubt the existence of God because they always try to come up with a logical explanation for it when that's not possible. Because we can't understand everything that goes on that's why we are called to trust in Him and believe that he has everything under control.

You know I’ve had issues w/ this stuff before and the thing that helped me the most was reading a short series by Gene Edwards called “The Chronicles of Heaven: The Beginning, The Promise, The Escape, The Birth, The Triumph, The Return.” It’s a great read, the books are short, but they make so much sense! Edwards takes a few drastic views that I personally LOVE:

1) God exists outside of time therefore; He is at the beginning, middle and end. He can predestine us from the foundation of the world (Ephesians) b/c He is AT the beginning and the end NOW. He knows who choses Him b/c He sees the end and the beginning at the same time.

2) Time is not linear, it is circular. This one is a bit harder to explain, but basically ‘time’ as we know it revolves around the cross. That is where it all started and that is where it ends.

3) Creation litterally exists INSIDE God (hince how He can be everywhere NOW)

Anyway, those are my thoughts. Hope you enjoyed it

The Triumph is awesome! I've read 3 of them...gotta get the other 2, but they are definitely "must reads".

I disagree, I believe that the illustration you quoted in your post cheapens God's omniscience. Specifically, "So the last person enters heaven...the book of Life is complete. No more names to be entered. The final judement has occurred. So God now has a record of EVERY person who will receive Jesus in this life.
GET THIS...
Then God takes the book of Life & He throws it back through time & catches it at the foundation of the world, at the very beginning. God now, before He creates anyone, knows who will accept Him & who will follow Him. Because He is at the beginning & He is at the end & He is right now as we speak. That is predestination...God knows beforehand who will accept Him"

First, for God to qualify as omniscient, he can never be in the act of acquiring knowledge. As the All-Knowing God, he is the point of origin of all knowledge. Therefore, there is nothing to know, that can be known, that God does not already know. Regardless of how you conceptualize time, the sequence in the train of thought you present is man's choice 1st, then God's knowledge 2nd, that simply can not be the case. Furthermore, for God to then present Himself as He does in those scriptures, that Chad referenced, is at best confusing and at worst deceitful. And I think we can agree that God is not deceitful.

Ephesians 1:5,11 states that our lives are in accordance with His will and His purpose and His pleasure. Man's will is not present there. What I believe your quote affirms is the sovereignty of man's choice. I do not believe that is supported by scripture, nor do I believe that scripture can be redefined to fit that belief.

Hey Iserve, what scriptures are you referring to that Chad referenced that present God as "confusing and deceitful"? The only ones I see are the ones he referenced to start this post off with: Romans 8 & Ephesians 1. And if so, how does that make God seem confusing & deceitful? After all it's the Bible...I don't think the Bible makes God seem confusing & deceitful.

But at the root of your statement, I think we're getting back here to Calvinism vs. Arminianism. Did I choose God w/ God's leading or did God choose me & I have nothing to do with it? As I stated at the top of this, we're not going to get to the bottom of that, clear cut...because honestly, if you really scrape through the Bible, you see scriptures backing both.

Personally, I believe we do have something to do with this process. Or else it would seem that we are just robots. We will follow God no matter what...that takes free will out of this thing. Now, do I believe that God has nothing to do with it? Absolutely not...Eph 1 talks about that part.

As far as the example I gave from the book...that's all it is, an example from a book. That's the best example I've heard that made it actually make sense to me:: How God could know who is going to accept Him in this life without starting off the world pre-destining people to hell (2 Peter 3:9). That example from "The Triumph" helped it to make sense to me. I'm not saying that's exactly how it happens/happened/will happen, but I'm not ruling the possibility out that it could go down exactly like that.

I do agree that God isn't acquiring knowledge...He is absolutely omniscient. But why can't the way He is omniscient be because He is at all places at all times? He isn't learning anything...He's there & He's always been there. He is the alpha & He is the omega.

Again, we're not going to solve it here, but by all means let's talk about it.

My Bad Johnson, I realized that you didn't know who I was when you called me Iserve. Its me Wendell.

What I was stating was that for God to inspire His disciple to present the course of our lives to be a product of His will, pleasure, etc. while its origin would in fact be our choice, would be confusing or deceitful.

Also, I do not believe that scripture will ever support two opposing veiws. Therefore, we are either both wrong or one of us is wrong.

I do not disreguard "free-will" I just do not believe it has anything to do with whom God chooses. How much we submit to God's will for our lives after salvation it absolutely subject to our will.

I believe that God's absolute attributes, such as His omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence are not dependent upon one another. That being said, I believe that the planning God put in to action was fully conceptualized and that all variables in the grand equation were accounted for and subject to his knowledge and pre-planning.

It seems that you are from a different school of thought Wendell, thanks for participating. Always good to have opposing perspectives and supporting info. Does anyone else have a different idea/concept or thought about Predestination that they were taught or came to realize from reading the word for them self?

I know I'm late but ... I can do that... Dizzie. I wanted to comment on a big point you made that I think a lot of people follow.
"I do not believe that scripture will ever support two opposing views. Therefore, we are either both wrong or one of us is wrong."
I cannot say that I agree with this or that the Word itself supports this. In biblical days men were beyond blessed to even have a copy of the Torah in their village, let alone in their house. If you wanted to hear the word of God you had to come to the temple and listen to the Rabbi's read it aloud for the people. Then they would sit for hours and hours and discuss and disagree on the word they had just read and heard.

History marks huge theological differences in Rabbi's who knew the same word but applied it differently. You, as a man after God in biblical days, would follow a certain Rabbi because of how he believed the scriptures applied to life and very little has changed today. People "choose" what church they will go too based on how the Pastor believes the scriptures apply to life. Entire churches and sects of Christianity have been created because some believed the same scriptures but believed them very differently.

The reason I bring this up is we, as children of the same God with the same Word, often feel that if we don't all agree on something then either you, I, or God is wrong on the issue... even the scripture itself. This just isn't true. The Lord has made us each with our own filter on how we hear and perceive the Word of God. What is easily acceptable truth for me may cause another to stumble.

To say that the scriptures cannot be interpreted differently means that there is only “one way” to believe in “everything” the Word has to say. Are we baptized in Jesus’ name alone or the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, will he return pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib, can we lose our salvation or not, is it predestination or complete free will of Man??? Each man must work out his own salvation with fear and trembling and each man must reason with the Lord on His Word.

Paul himself wrote on how to treat others who don’t believe as you do. “Weaker Brother Principle.” The reason I go to such lengths to mention this is because the “all or nothing” mentality that many have is both dangerous and unbiblical. Yes we are to walk in unity but not at the cost of “it’s my way or no way.”

Comments?

Yah, I feel ya Avery. And sorry Wendell, I think I somehow overlooked your reply on Mar 18th. I would have responded to it, but it got lost in the mix somewhere.

I do believe that scripture never contradicts itself. But I believe that the way it is written/translated/interpreted can look contradicting. God is not confused about how this whole thing works & therefore His Word through the Bible is not confused...but the way it is read/translated can be confusing. That is why we are having this conversation & why people have been having this conversation for 1000's of years. And bottom line, we aren't going to solve it here.

Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

This is a great example of 2 seemingly contradictory statements. God foreknew & predestined people to become like Christ (i.e.=Heaven)...but at the same time He is patient with us, "not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance (i.e.=Heaven). How can God foreknow & predestine people for Heaven but at the same time want everyone to repent? So God only "calls" a few people but wants "everyone"? That doesn't make sense.

So I think you have to look at the totality of the Bible. Which one of the interpretations of these scriptures best lines up with what we see about God throughout the entire Bible? For me it's door #2...the fact that God wants everyone...but ultimately people have to choose to follow God or not. You look into the world & you see it everyday.

Deuteronomy 30:19This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live...

But I do want to say one thing about the whole "predestination" thing. You don't see this as much today, but there was a HUGE issue with this back in the 1700's & 1800's where people believed that if you were predestined then you were going to Heaven regardless b/c God had chosen you, so therefore you could live however you wanted & would still "go to Heaven". And if you weren't predestined for Heaven then you could still live however you wanted & would go to Hell. If you carry on the "predestination" thing too far then it has very dangerous implications.

That's why I think every person has to fall on Christ, repent of your sins, acknolwedge you can't do it on your own, be baptised & live for God. That is ultimately salvation & if that means that all the people who did that were "foreknown" & "chosen" & "predestined" then so be it. But God desires for all people to do that, not just a few.

But, I confess, we are kind of coming full circle now.

Avery, I agree with your idea that there's not just one way to look at most scriptures...and the bottom line is that we're probably all wrong & when we finally get a revelation of this or find out in Heaven we'll kick ourselves for what we believed here.

Wendell, sorry again for not posting back for a month.

Chad, thanks for starting this up.

Everybody else...still silent?