fusionatl

First of all I can't let Shane take up all the postings in this category lol. He's not the only one who loves music (although he's the better singer between me and him haha).

So, and I've had this conversation actually with Shane, but what do you all think about using secularish music in worship. For example, tonight (Jan 23rd) we are singing a secular song. But even though it's secular can God not use it? Will God not use it?

What do you think? Because some people will hear us playing it and completely miss the message that it's about Jesus and we're not trying to justify their secular music collection. That's a hard thing I guess about playing it. Where some of us can listen to a secular song and hear a different message... We can really hear the Lords heart behind it, whereas others will hear a song and be like "Man this joint is TIZZIGHT!"

So what do you think?

Im kinda on edge about that, someone I know got this cool revelation and basicaly it states that we shouldn't try to look like the world but the world should want to look like us and want what we have. Im pretty sure the song is cool and it can be looked as singing to God but just like you said some people will totaly miss that you are singing to JESUS. But like I said seek God search the word and see what he says because my opinion really dont matter.

Spill the beans, Jose! What song is it?

To answer your question... well... I dunno... I guess it depends on the song...

Read Velvet Elvis. He really goes into this thought. A few ideas I got from the book.

1) The word "Christian" was first used to describe the followers of Christ. Notice the word is a NOUN. It described people. It was not an ADJECTIVE, modifying a noun. In other words "Christian" is a great word to describe someone...a very bad word to describe something.
When we are calling one song Christian & one song Not Christian, we are denying that God is present (I AM)...we are saying, "No God, your truth can only exist in songs that say the name 'Jesus' 3 times and 'God' twice, but you have to says 'Hallelujah' 6 times and 'Amen' once.
See how sticky the term "Christian" gets when you start applying it to things other than people? When does a song become Christian? When does it stop being Christian? There's a lot more to be said about that...but that's a start. Christian = Good noun, Bad adjective.

2) We haven't talked too much about this in Fusion, but if you look close enough & hard enough...the New Testament IS the apostles/disciples taking the common language & sayings of the day & applying them to Jesus.
A common saying of the day was "There is no name other than Caesar that saves us." The first followers of Christ saw the potential truth in such a statement & said, "thank you very much" took the statement & made it about Christ..."there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."
Paul very clearly, when going to Greece, takes a PAGAN saying from their poets and it ends up in our Bible! "As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'" (Acts 17:28) Think about that for a quick minute! The writings of a Greek Pagan poet are in OUR Bible!!! Paul saw a truth, "We are God's children" written in another form & HE TOOK IT! Because all truth is God's truth....remember Jesus is THE TRUTH.

Just some ramblings, but that's real. I think the issue is that people are so accustomed to calling something Christian & something Not Christian that it messes them up. And that is where we get into the weaker brother principle which is a whole other post! But that is something we have to think about.
I think the way to combat this is teaching & prayer. That God can be & is present in many different songs, movies, etc and we can't just shun them because "they aren't Christian"...again, a bad adjective. There probably is a line out there...but for this post, we aren't talking about singing 50 cent or Lincoln Park...it's phrases or choruses from songs that have a truth that can be directly applied to God (like the disciples did).

ooooooooooooooo Jose, now why did you even post this. you know how i feel, but for those that don't.

I see where everyone is coming from , however, my issue is not the christian music v.s the non- christian music. Music is music, but its the content, lyrics, and nature of the song that causes it to be classified as a certain genre.

for ie... Kanye West's next album can be a whole inspirational album with no cuss words, just insightful subjects, however, for that album, do we advertise it in the gospel/christian music section or does it remain in rap?

Then I believe that God can speak to people through songs, but what is he telling us when we are listening to the song and as Taina said on the forum last wednesday in response to my question... God sometimes speaks to us in regards to other people or our own situations, but it may be meant for you to keep to yourself and lift in prayer.

So basically just because God spoke to you in that specific song doesn't mean that same message that you got out of it, your neighbor will get the same. Your upliftment sometimes can be your brothers downfall. This can be an all day debate, but it all comes back to your relationship with God and what He reveals to you.

I love Mary J. Blige and she has a few songs out that I can say, God I love you and everytime I hear this song I think of you and i just want more of you ...so on and so on, but for someone else they might be saying, this song i think of when my girlfriend or boyfriend cheated on me, or this song makes me think of having sex... ya know?

As far as singing them at fusion, i mean i dunno. What I do know is that maybe songs that may cause a topic as such, should be prayed about and ask God to show you direction on it, then take it to the leader ,Johnson, see what he says about it and after God has given clearance on it, than do what God told yal to do.

P.S REVIEW THE LYRICS FROM BEGINING TO END... SUBLIMINAL MESSAGING DOES EXIST.
SO MANY TIMES WE GET CAUGHT UP IN THE SOUND THAT WE MISS THE MESSAGE.

WOW! Johnson... I really never looked at it that way... To call something Christian and something else non-Christian is denying Gods presence. That blew me away! That and the whole Christian being a noun thing too.. Whew... So that means that we can use 50-Cents song... "You can find me in the club" because I can TOTALLY see Jesus singin that... Well maybe some of that.

No but seriously, that is a good prospective and it does kind of go with what I was thinking. Because God can be in every song... He created music! So that's a great revelation to have.

Lesson of the day: Christian is a noun... Not an adjective!

It all boils down to one thing that is to pursue holiness. The Alicia's Key's and Beyonce's and 50 cents and Rock Bands and so and so on need to be distracted by us and my prayer is that we would be so contagiously in love with JESUS that our loves songs to him will draw them into the Kingdom. I know that some people will still say that we can use music that doesn’t say God and JESUS to save souls and that is true but why not use the music that GOD has giving us specifically to minister to the lost. There are worship leaders who spend hours with God to touch his heart to write songs to touch his people why not use that.

True Tasha... But aren't there also people who spend no hours with God and try to produce music and call it "anointed"?

That's why I kind of like what Johnson said, and I think Jason Upton kinda has this going too if you remember from onething (and some of His other songs). He'll just be singing a song over his children and then BAM, he grasps a revelation of the Lord's heart for himself (and for us). A simple song not even sang to or for God instantly becomes a song sang either from us to the Lord or the Lord to us with the right revelation.

I mean even look at Leo's songs... On his new CD. How many of those songs really directly say Jesus or God? Like "Reminds me of You" but yet it's an amazing song. And the same with Christian's song, "I can't handle it" I don't recall the name of Jesus being mentioned yet we cannot deny that song has an anointing on it (even though it was birthed in a place of 24/7 prayer, but we wont count that lol).

But yea, I think in the end... It's about us and Jesus. If I find myself with Jesus by listening to this song or that song it's all good, I'm with Jesus... If I find Jesus from walking through the woods then it's all good because I'm with Jesus. If I find Jesus in the quiet of my room, guess what... It's all good because I'm with Jesus...

Sometimes (and I'm just going out on a tangent now) I think we worry too much about how everybody else is doing with Jesus that we mismanage our own relationship with Him. We are soo worried about if Suzy Q is reading her word or if Johnny P is really serving Jesus and we keep looking at those specs while ignoring the plank. I'm not saying we do this... No, because we're SUPER CHRISTIANS... I'm talking about those other, non-Fusion people you know.

(and we especially do this when we "like" someone... GASP... but that's not for this section of the forum lol sry)

LATA

Yes Joooosssseee, and all those artist you mention are going after GOD's heart remember that. And Leo and Christian intentions are pure and good that is why that dont have to mention JESUS. My point is that we need to be trying to get them saved because its obvious that they have a gift but what good is that gift if its not use to glorify that one that gave that gift. Its about souls for me I can care less that they can sing and there songs can be used in church at end of the day they are not doing it for God if they were we wouldnt be discussing this.

So kind of like a, "Why should we really benefit from the song and give... recognition to the artist for this song (and honor to God) if the artist isn't even saved."

That's more-so what you're saying?

I just want to side note that this is a forum and people will have their own opinions and topics as such, as i stated in a previous post, can go all day in debates.

Some topics afterwhile, just need to be released. lol
All I can say is just pray about it and ask God to reveal to you his answer on this subject.

As humans, sometimes we asks questions and we dont get the answer we were looking for, so we keep asking other people in search of that perfect answer that will constitute how you feel. We are all guilty of this one time or another.

So..... just ask God to speak to our hearts on this matter.

According dictionaries online, Christian is a noun and an adjective: “of, pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ or His teachings: a Christian denomination.” However the term Christian music is vague and subject to each person’s spiritual barometer.

Having not read these preparatory posts and never hearing a song by Alicia Keys, I was very tolerant of "Tell You Something."

I was naive to believe that the worship leader would actually be listening to songs purposefully written for praise and worship.

Nevertheless, I accepted the song as a worship song, until I heard "Don't wanna wait to bring you flowers." Then I realized that God does not require flowers and most flowers are presented as gifts to beloved women or deceased men.

At this point the worship aura ceased. I was curious if anyone else felt the same way. I looked around and no one was lifting their hands. There was unease and blank stares.

The last slide listed Alicia Keys as the author; my doubts and confusion were validated.

The next song was a completely different experience. I have never heard it, but the lyrics and the music transported my spirit back to that glory of God. Hands raised, I was lost in worship. The presence of God was palpable, reassuring, a taste of heaven.

I became aware that everyone else was in this worship mode as well.

As a mature Christian, filled with the Holy Spirit and well versed in worship music, I have heard my share. My worship barometer is finely tuned, even vague songs from Lifehouse can be used sparingly for worship.

I am well aware that we all have preferences, but I strongly feel that because we know what works to usher people into God's Holy Presence, why waste their time in leading songs that only a few are capable of appreciating?

"Don't want to bring you flowers"

It's all in prospective I would say. I mean, are flowers literal flowers? Or are they symbolic? Are we as worshipers taking songs literally? Or are we even getting the point of view correct?

Here is the whole part of that part of the song:

I wanna tell you something
Give you something
Show you in so many ways
Cuz it would all mean nothing
If I don't say something
Before it all goes away
Don't wanna wait to bring you flowers
Waste another hour
Let alone another day
I'm gonna tell you something
Show you something
Won't wait til it's too late

Now... You can look at this in soo many ways... Like you can see it as us singing it to the Lord... Saying God I want to tell you how much I love you because my life is a vapor... I may die tomorrow but before I do I have to tell you, I have to show you, I have to express how much I LOVE YOU! In this sense, I think the "flower" would be us trying to flatter God... We're saying, "I don't want to flatter you God, I don't want to convince you in any way that I love you in any other way than truly from the heart." Just like in the real world... Giving someone flowers doesn't mean you earnestly love them... It's just an expression, it could be backed by love, or it could not be. I think that when we look at it this way, then the point of view changes.

We could also look at this VERY SAME SECTION, and see it in a different view... We can see it as us wanting to tell someone who does not know Christ about Him.... It's like, "Hey, I have to tell you something, I have to share with you the Good News, because tomorrow you may not make it through the whole day." It's like the testimony of Jesus in our lives is so great that we want to share it with the world because the person we see may not be there tomorrow. Tomorrow could really be too late for someone. The person you don't tell Jesus about could die tomorrow... or tonight. So again, "don't want to bring you flowers" could be taken as "I don't want to make it all pretty" I don't want to (again) flatter you into loving and knowing Jesus because there's so much more to it than that.

I think we need to remember not to take everything to literal... Otherwise, we would all read "If your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out" and we would... Well be a blinder generation. So I think it's more than just surface level... It's not about giving God flowers... It's what do the flowers in our lives represent.

Like in Matthew 7:21-23... They were saying how they had done all these things for the Lord, they had given Him all these "flowers" so to say, and what does He say? He doesn't know them... He wants more than just what we can do for Him... He wants our hearts... He wants our affections... He wants us to be Mary before we are Martha.

So yea... that's my two cents in regards to that.

Some of my best ‘God moments’ have come from secular music, I can’t describe them all to you but trust me everything from ‘borderline bands’ like Lifehouse (You and Me) or Daughtry (Crashed) to Nickleback (Savin’ Me).

Beyond that here’s my theory on secular music. IF we are really as close to the return of Jesus as we say we believe we are, then I think we are about to see the Holy Spirit churning a few things in the church and in the world. I think that there is going to be a move in the secular music industry where unsaved artists are going to start crying out in their music indirectly for Jesus. He is the desire of the nations.